German ministry mulls ramping up coal-fired plants to cut energy costs
https://dpa-international.com/economics/urn:newsml:dpa.com:20090101:260831-930-611106/
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https://dpa-international.com/economics/urn:newsml:dpa.com:20090101:260831-930-611106/
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As a German (and more general, a human with a brain): Are they fucking stupid?
Spoiler
Of course not, the truth is that they are corrupt
No, they are pragmatic.
Should we have much, much more renewables right now? Yes, absolutely.
But lowering energy costs right now is also very important to keep people and business afloat right now is also important.
No, they aren’t (costs of energy production in germany):
(renewables on the left, fossils on the right)
source
And there’s the European Union Emissions Trading System (EU ETS) that makes you pay for emitted CO2. And the price for that keeps on rising as intended.
Add to that battery storage. The current weather is allows for a few hours every day, where renewables meet electricity demand. With something like 200GWh of battery storage it would be possible to switch of nearly all fossil fuels power plants in Germany about now. That is not a crazy amount at all.
Especially considering 200 GWh have already been approved and permits for over 500 GWh have been requested in '25.
Lowering energy costs would mean more renewable power plants because they are cheaper. Fossil power should be merely backup for intervals where there is not enough wind, solar, battery, and hydropower.
How about turning them nukes back on?
Yeah, why did they think that removing their nukes was a good idea?
Because if they keep the reactors running, how are they going to justify buying Russian petrochemicals?.
www.dw.com/en/…/a-76305267
Even the ultra conservative ex-blackrock chancellor Merz with the least favourable public opinion polling results, says it’s impossible, though he regrets the exit, although his own party decided affirmatively on this back then after Fukushima.
CDU/CSU the christian conservative party of Merz had slogans of a reboot of nuclear power in their federal election campaigns and were touting heavy investments in fusion and SMR research and some of the ultra reactionary (no pun) NIMBYs of the CSU wanted to reboot their beloved reactors but always rejected nuclear waste storages in their beautiful state of Bavaria. Now they’re number 4 of 16 German states in solar buildout and Hubert Aiwanger, an infamous CSU politician always ranting against everything woke, is posting videos in which he standing in front of a pasture with grazing sheeps under solar panels and below whispering wind turbines.
The CEO of RWE, which operated the nuclear plants, says it’s not feasible:
bloomberg.com/…/rwe-ceo-says-germany-needs-to-rep…
Nuclear power is the most expensive form of energy production:
ise.fraunhofer.de/…/studie-stromgestehungskosten-…
The grey bar on the first diagram represents the cost per kilowatt for nuclear. All the bars up to and including the blue bar are renewables. The tax payer would have to shoulder a lot for that all the while solar and batteries are getting cheaper and cheaper with tech like sodium-ion. You also have to train new operators for the power plants while many of those capable of training are already retired. In addition tax payers will still have to cover the cost of dealing with the nuclear waste leaking from the “end-storage” Asse.
All in all reactivating nuclear would heavily up the energy prices. The only chance for turning towards that course is when the fascists from AfD will take over who announced ofc they’ll tear down renewables and reboot the nuclear energy sector as well as the coal energy sector. That bunch of fucking boomers also deny any man made climate change and generally any kind of science and reality.
Do those costs include tax exemptions like fossil gets?
Regardless of progress in renewables you still need baseline power for when renewables aren’t renewing.
In 30 years if you start now, and for how many billions?
And then you gotta turn them off in summer when rivers are too hot or too low.
France is a country fully devoted to nuclear Power. Must be paradise, cheap and Clean, right? Ask them how its going 😉 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France?wpr…
Well, yes actually
<https://euenergy.live/articles/average-electricity-bill-europe>
Does France also have a merit order “uniform pricing” system like Germany? Electricity prices are set by the most expensive producer, which is fossil by a large margin. This doesn’t reflect the actual cost of generating electricity at all, but favors the cheapest producer in the market.
Edit:
The article you posted doesn’t say that it’s because of high electricity generation costs, but because of high taxes and grid fees. Don’t know if you wanted to make that point or just wanted to “actually” the OP, though.
No… that is on top of the wholesale price that I listed.
It says so in your own quote.
Oh, that’s cheap, nice. Does that include liability insurance and running costs for the nuclear waste repository for the next few hundred years?
next few hundred years??? i have some bad news for you…
Probably, since that is the price.
Energy taxes are higher in Germany too.
That’s not just an EDF problem though. The entire French economy is slumping and France has the largest debt of any EU country.
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I don’t know why you deleted your other comment, but the answer is: it’s a state owned company, so these are communicating vessels.
It does not. No insurance company does cover nuclear reactors and running the long term storage is not priced in. So, the costs of a potential disaster and of dealing with the leftovers are kicked to whoever encounters that problem at some point.
If I ran a company like that, I could damn sure be cheaper than someone else too.
I’m beginning to think you’re varying expertise is in bullshit and lies
Uhm… what? Of course they do.
Seems like you’re just making things up now because you don’t like to be wrong. Please stop arguing in bad faith, it’s not a good look.
Last I’ve read was that the insurance only covers up to 1.5 billion € in damages. That would only cover small incidents
Yeah I don’t think insurance covers a Chernobyl size event, but that is increasingly unlikely to happen with modern reactors nowadays. We don’t build inherently dangerous reactors like the soviets did —nor have we ever.
The only large disaster in modern history is Fukushima in 2011 and to a lesser extent the three mile island incident in 1979. After each we’ve learned a lot and made important changes to plants worldwide to prevent it. But yes, there is a non-zero chance for a meltdown in current NPPs.
But it would take a natural disaster of epic proportions and I don’t think those are covered for any power plant, nuclear or not.
And new technology like molten salt reactors and thorium based fuels will increase safety even further.
For households, yes.
Not for companies - they profit far more from the cheap renewables.
Especially companies which need a lot of electricity.
Maybe, but wholesale prices are still more expensive in Germany. And sure, solar is cheaper in the summer, but companies need power in winter too. And on days with little wind as well. That’s when Germany fires up the gas plants —and now apparently coal— and that makes prices skyrocket in the winter.
So that is why the wholesale price of power over a whole year is cheaper in France.
Not to mention the fact that German power plants emit millions of tonnes of CO2 each year and France’s emit water Vapor.
Yeah, I already said that households pay higher prices than companies.
And: Are you saying that nuclear power is cheaper than other sources? really?
Sorry, I guess that was too many hard questions at once. Maybe answer just one?
No, you said taxes are higher for households. The wholesale prices I showed are before taxes.
I’m not saying that. The analysis in the article tells us that France’s energy generation composition, which heavily relies on nuclear, is cheaper than Germany’s. You can read the article and find out for yourself.
Let me ask you a few questions in return:
The funniest thing is germany, opposing nucler power, is importing French nuclear power generated electricity labeled as green energy. The hypocrisy is appalling.
France is also importing from Germany when they can’t cover their own demand.
It’s a collaborative network.
Germans went full retard for closing their clean nuclear energy plants. Absolutely foolish decision that’s still biting them in the ass!
Its really not biting anyone in the ass. We dont actually have any problems with our energy production, its just corrupt politicians inventing shit. Getting rid of nuclear has saved us many billions of euros in taxpayer money.
Did you read the article? Or even the headline of the article you posted your comment to?
You’re firing up coal firing plants (while also paying way more for your energy than France).
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Wow this makes me sad. Are people really so naive that they just read shit like this and believe it? Putting the words “artificial intelligence” and “economic output” in the same sentence like that is one of the dumbest things i can imagine. The entire AI sector is a giant financial human centipede feeding itself on its own excrement. Sad to see that people still haven’t figured that out when its all public information. AI is the worst financial bubble to exist in modern history and you are falling for the most obvious lie if you believe the stuff you quoted. I wish you were trolling but it doesn’t seem like you are.
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Wow as search engines, a thing that was invented and perfected decades ago and has since only been made worse artificially to sell adspace?
And no it does indeed not significantly speed up work as plenty of studies have shown. Its just very good at tricking people into thinking that it does while actually trading quality for speed, requiring later intervention that will cancel out any earlier speed gains. AI will also not replace you, it will just trick your boss into thinking that it can replace you. We have seen examples of this everywhere in the world where companies either go bankrupt right away or have to re-hire all the workers they “replaced” because it just doesnt work.
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News to me… everything I read is that you guys are having an energy crisis
Welcome to post-factual reality where it’s all about selling a narrative to people dumb enough to ignore actual facts.
GERMAN MINISTRY MULLS RAMPING UP COAL,-FIRED PLANTS - sounds like energy crisis to me
Of course it does. You have already demonstrated your propaganda-induced brain-damage when you argued that cutting nuclear, the most expensive way to produce electricity, somehow increased energy costs.
So it’s not at all surprising that a “We reject (and block and sabotage) cheap renewable energy and storgae to focus on expensive fossil fuels to [somehow, magically…] reduce costs”-statement of a corrupt government paid by fossil fuel lobbyists makes sense for you.
The actual reality is the opposite: They are trying to establish the narrative of an energy crisis so they can justify using more fossil fuels. All to increase the profits of fossil fuel companies paying them. Then, when the costs go up even more, they will tell you that those evil renewables are to blame and we just need to burn more of the expensive coal and gas. And as you obviously lost contact to reality already, you will believe them and happily keep fighting against cheap green energy.
Do you know anyone that works in the energy sector, like anyone that is an expert in maintaining the power grid and electricity? You do not, you are making things up and you don’t actually know how much things cost, especially in the winter!
Yes.
Yes
Oh, so that wasn’t a question and you just wanted to speak some more about the symptoms of your brain rot. Well…
Yeah, sure. Reality is lying, facts aren’t real, economic figures are wrong… and the expensive energy sources are actually the cheap ones and one of the few countries actually highly autonomous with reserve capicities held back to supply themselves and several neighbours at the same time is suffering from an energy crisis.
Where have I heard that one before? Oh, yes… in the right-wing propaganda media that spend the last few years hallucinating about blackouts any moment now™. The same morons telling funny tales about Germany’s total on French nuclear power when in reality less than 4% of the total power was imported, the vast majority in renewables from nordic countries. The same morons that ranted against heat pumps for years (because “who doesn’t even understand how that magic is supposed to work” - paraphrasing but not really far from their actual coverage). The same morons that now loudly scream about EVs and how we really, really need to stick to combustion engines if we want to save the car industry (and civilisation!!)…
Guess I know where you get the shit you mistake for information.
Okay. So why are prices up in Germany? Do you think people just raise prices for fun? You understand how supply and demand works? Or is that also a big lie?
You don’t understand the electricity market at all.
Mainly gas power plants getting more expensive due to the Iran war. The price is determined by the last power plant needed to fulfill demand, which usually is a gas power plant.
Prices go up because companies can get rich.
Oil and gas prices increase and the energy costs go up, oil and gas prices go down and energy costs stay mostly the same. Oil and gas prices are expected to increase in the future (see: Iran war) and the prices go up instantly. When the oil costs actually start to increase the companies start crying crocodile tears and the government reduces taxes on fuel to allegedly take off pressure from consumers… and the companies still increase the price, just a bit less than the costs thus taking a big chunk of those tax cuts as profits, too, ontop of the earlier price increase already accounting for their costs. When oil price goes down again the tax reduction runs out and the difference is directly transfered to the consumers for another end user/profit increase.
The obvious result: oil and gas companies for the last few years constantly break their own records for profit margins again and again. So yeah, they understand demand and supply: there is demand so they can take any amount of money independent of supply unless laws/goverments reign them in. Which the corrupt German one won’t do.
Instead they increase red-tape for renewables and more importantly storage and build more gas power plants.
(Fun fact: Guess who is actively criticising the government’s idiotic gas plans that are destined to increase energy costs even more: the industry suffering from it. Guess who spend years criticising the government’s flip-flopping on the EV transition: the car industry. Yet they still happen, because the corrupt government is not working for the people, the economy or the country but for their rich fossil fuel donors. Those indeed are very happy with their constantly increasing profits and insane plans to fortify gas and oil dependence for decades.)
The energy economics are more complex than just supply and demand. Pricing has additional conditions.
You’re not very smart, are you?
Lol Germany’s industry is no longer competitive on the world stage because of idiot policies. As your people go poorer and your country continues to deteriorate (like USA Midwest) you will them realize loser policies create loser socioeconomic conditions.
Had you posted the full headline you’d have seen that this is about cost cutting. There’s no energy crisis here.
Cost is correlated with supply
No shit.
Nothing about a crisis in that statement though.
Yeah, because those are … looks it up … far more expensive than even coal. That would totally help with energy costs.
They were old, the costs for the upkeep off the charts. No insurance company insures the damn things and they didn’t provide that much power to begin with. We’re doing pretty well in terms of wind an solar power though. If someone shoots the damn Nazis on their collective faces (yes, CxU included), then this trend will keep going and we’re finally free from the corrupt oil/gas/coal cunts. Nuclear power is the dumbest shit that’s being peddled by former Redditors.
You are in the top 5 for electric cost in the WORLD. Your industry is begging for relief as they go bankrupt, yet you keep defending idiot policies. Well more and more Germans lose their jobs you’ll pass the point of no return. Loser policies cause loser businesses. Oh well we try to warn you but you all think you know better. It’s simple economic supply and demand. CAPITALISM NOT SOCIALISM WORKS
then why does the state always have to subsidize nuclear power? dont scream at us.
Well that’s why fossil fuel plants are needed. How are those coal power plants doing? Those cause more cancer and now you have to rely on them more. No?
Coal is a fossil fuel. Gas is expensive atm because of the US/Israel war. Thats why they now want to use coal more. Its (a lot) worse for the climate, worse for health but cheaper. Actually quite capitalist of them…
Or what do you mean with fossil fuel plants? Diesel generators?
Well the reason the fossil fuel plants (coal, gas, oil) are needed is because nuclear energy was taken out of the equation. Look at francez they don’t have the same energy issues like Germany
I understand your position as: Germany has expensive energy because they are stupid and abandoned nuclear power.
While abandoning nuclear power before coal was certainly a bad idea climatewise (i’m even with you calling this idiotic, thank you Merkel), coal is not more expensive than nuclear.
The 20 cent/kWh the french have on their electricity bill is not an honest price. The operator EDF is state owned and constantly loosing money the state then has to put in again, so the they also pay with taxes for their electricity.
Also the more renewables are in the mix the less economic nuclear becomes. Nuclear is good when it can run 24/7 but not when it has to constantly change its output or event has to be turned off during the day.
EDF posted 5.2 billion profit in 2025, record 11 billion profit in 2024. Where do you see them losing money? Imagine having lower prices and more profit while having clean energy? Nuclear is a part of that formula ESPECIALLY for an industrial country like Germany. Alas, Germany went the other way and it’s people will fail to realize the consequences of this until it is irreparable. Industry will die, people will be poorer and Germany will be worse of. We can see this in 10 years. German auto makers already can’t compete (literally can’t make cars cheaper due to electricity cost that need to be passed down to consumer) with Chinese automakers. This is simple economics no?
They still are 50 billion euros in debt: www.edf.fr/en/2025-annual-results
Also they need to invest $542 billion by 2040. They have mostly 30 years old reactors which need a lot of maintenance. And they now have to compete with solar/wind.
Also see en.wikipedia.org/…/Levelized_cost_of_electricity
How much of a car cost is electricity cost vs labor cost? I suspect the latter to me much higher.
I concur that our politicians are a bunch of right wing cunts. But the rest you’re writing is drivel. Socialism is the only thing keeping the people happy. Capitalism only makes the capital-holders happy. And yes, electricity is expensive here but not because of the bullshit you shat on your keyboard, rather because of:
Taxes - we have super high taxes on electricity. This is OK, because taxes ensure that we can all live decent lives here.
Costs for expanding the electrical grid - this is inevitable as more and more electricity is consumed. These aren’t sunk costs however.
Electricity market - the price is based on the most expensive currently required form of electricity, which is gas. Nuclear power would make this more expensive.
The conservative cunts who want to stick with gas are the corrupt fucks that ruin it for us.
Idk, renewables won’t help you when the sun’s not shining in the winter. Renewables won’t help you when the winds are calm in the winter. When the winter comes and you need to heat your own home, you like all the rest of your countrymen will be depending on fossil fuels. Don’t forget about the future heat waves Europe’s about to experience, you will need more electricity to cool down your homes because you did not have the foresight like Americans who actually think that summers are hot and need to cool people. That’s the difference is you need to think!
My friend look at how many poor people died in Europe because there was no investment in the electrical grid and into cooling your cities. In the USA we would not allow that to happen because capitalism actually cares for people’s well-being and people know that they wanted to stay cool so they were able to buy that. In Europe, your regulations don’t allow you to do anything and there is no innovation and so people died. This is no different than what happened in communist Russia when so many people die because there’s no food because there was no innovation. Truly, all those that have died are just caused by more socialist practices. It really makes me sick to my stomach how Europeans are just okay with many people dying in the streets because of the heat when the USA has proven that you could cool down cities. You just do it. You open up the free market and capitalism will fix it all for you people!