My fear is that this will change. We already saw LG load malware via windows when connected. So in theory future devices like Roku and Apple TV could act as a proxy for the tv.
I also fear we will have to install faraday mesh in our walls when these things start arriving with their own internet connection to collect your data and show you ads.
They could but why would they? Roku sells data on you already and has limited things to gain from teaming up on the off chance you’re using a second source for content. Apple sells on the basis of privacy for a higher price and if they’re getting into that game like Roku they’d just spy themselves and not help a competitor on the chance a consumer has blocked it.
If anything Roku and others being able to say “we have data on people TV makers don’t” increases their own value proposition.
The real risk IMO is on device analysis and built in cellular modems sending this data. That and things like Amazon sidewalk meaning your neighbor’s Alexa device passes it on for a fee. That and just refusing to work without internet of course.
We already saw LG load malware via windows when connected.
This was 100% a Windows driver issue as opposed to a TV issue. And I could see possibly Roku doing this, but not Apple. Apple being Unix based precludes the type of driver loading that Windows is susceptible to.
Sounds like a great item to return to the store for a full refund. Manufactures just love returned products, completely destroys the profit on the next several sales.
I recently bought a new TV and did some research to find the “least worst” TV with regard to internet connectivity and reliance on its “smart OS” navigation to just use an external HDMI port. I can report pretty good news for the Sony Bravia line of Android TVs.
there was no requirement to connect it to the internet
during setup there is a choice for “basic” which adds only a few default apps (which are uninstallable/disablable by the user)
there is a setting called “Power on and remember last input port”. What this means is you last used HDMI1 port when you powered off the TV, when you power it back up again it automatically goes right back to that HDMI input port without any extra button presses or user interaction. In practice this means you see the Sony logo on the screen and just a fraction of a second the graphic circles of part of the AndroidTV interface before it switches to the HDMI1 input where we left off before powering off the tv prior.
Bonus feature we like:
there is a setting you can enable/disable that if the TV is already powered on, when you power on a device on another HDMI port than the one you’re on, the TV will automatically switch to that HDMI input without prompting. So if we’re watching the AppleTV on HDMI1 and then want to watch a Blu-ray, simply powering on the Blu-ray player will also have the TV switch to that HDMI2 input.
I wish there was no AndroidTV OS on it at all, but the only time I’ve ever seen it was the one time when we went through the initial setup. We haven’t seen or interacted with it since.
Have you tried using it as a DLNA renderer? For example using BubbleUPnP on a mobile device as DLNA controller to cast content from Jellyfin+DLNA plugin as DLNA server.
My dream is for my kid to learn enough about electronics to be able to open up his TV, identify any microphones, and be able to disable them. Then he might have a chance of privacy when he’s an adult.
That’s likely not going to cover it. They’re taking snapshots of what’s on screen and sending that info home. They’re using wifi and Bluetooth to get your location and information about what other devices you have. Never connecting it to the internet is going to be one of the best things to do for privacy.
If they’re using bluetooth and wifi, we better find and remove those components too. Ain’t no way they won’t have the OS forcibly connect to the nearest open network or start bluetooth to deliver what they want when you ain’t using it, regardless of whether or not you have connected to internet or not.
If they’re using bluetooth and wifi, we better find and remove those components too.
Removing the Bluetooth/wifi module maybe more difficult. For cost cutting reasons, these controllers are built into the logic boards now, but disconnecting the bluetooth/wifi antennas inside the TV is trivially easy. They are simple push-on mechanical connectors. No wire cutting needed. Gently grab the gold/silver metal part pull straight up from the board.
I just googled “lcd TV logic board” and this was one of the first images I found. I put a red square around the antenna connectors.
Unless they start adding cellular connectivity for serving ads. Though maybe the calculation doesn’t work out, presumably most people would either connect the TV to the internet voluntarily, or they’re not gonna use the TV:s UI much and thus not see many ads.
Right now, it’s about consolidating power at the TV operating system level. Make the TV replace devices like a Roku box and you get all that data. 61% of US households use the TV as their main streaming device. So that’s about 82 million households. Some stats get as high as 70%
It’s a hard number to get, but I’ve seen estimates that smart tvs are subsidized by about $200 per unit based on a value of $120 per viewer per year on days collection when they’re connected. Average about 2 people per household and a 3 year lifespan of the TV, and that’s $720-$200, so $500 net profit from data sales on average per unit. So already that’s close to $40-$50 billion in data sales alone across the smart TV market in the US. Without adding in hidden bells and whistles to collect more data.
But the gap the industry sees isn’t people wisely not connecting their TVs. It’s that there’s so many connected devices! They want the TV to just replace some of them.
And it’s working. Simply causing TV OS bloat to try and get ahead of human laziness and undercut Roku is the goal. With huge gains to be made without spending a penny on things like embedded sims cards and cellular service for 40 million TVs sold annually in the US to collect data on a group that’s already shifting patterns to the TV as the primary device. Why bother? It’s wasted money for most units sold. If companies just sold cheap, subsidized TVs that demanded they must be connected to work, then that’s the easiest, cheapest, highest profit angle to play.
I’d genuinely love to see real evidence of any of these things being used in a wide range of models.
These are mostly expensive options (a SIM card for every TV? really?) and require maintenance and finesse, and aren’t needed for the majority of units shipped. Occam’s razor would suggest they’re happy enough with anyone stupid enough to connect the TV that all this work for 5-10% of their market isn’t worth the additional marginal cost to each unit.
There are models that will try out unencrypted wifi AP just to phone home. No extra equipment needed and unfortunately the chances of finding an open AP are pretty good in the middle of the city.
I recently purchased an old plasma TV I will be tinkering with. No internet connectivity of any kind. It is hard to get excited about new TVs that are basically google and Bezos boxes and I do not wish to send them a single dime just to be spied on when I just want to watch my movies on bluray.
I am aware I can just disconnect my TV from the internet, but I don’t want to support the stupid platforms that are built into the TV. Why is it any of Googles, amazon or any other platforms business what I use my TV for?
But what stops LG from convincing the Ubuntu maintainers to make an LG variant of their supposed driver to magically appear in your snap or apt package repository? You hope to God they don’t, but the danger is always there.
What a convoluted way of saying Linux is better. And using Ubuntu as reference…
It is clear until that point, but how do you set up full control with that? afaik by default nothing listens to the input events generated by the IR receiver
Well, certain inputs like <up> <down> <left> <right> will map directly to keyboard equivalents. The OK button generally maps to <enter>. And then other inputs like play/pause, volume, skip forward/backward are standard PC inputs that just about every OS supports out of the box. Most keyboards have those buttons on them and they “just work”.
For additional functionality you can use specialized software to manage it.
The IR receiver is just a “translator”. The input the computer sees is just a standard HID peripheral (Human Input Device).
to me the reason I don’t want a mouse is I need to move it on some surface for it to work, and even then it’s handling is much less accurate than at the desk, and its a chore to target that little button on the screen. from this point keyboard based navigation would work better, in apps that implement it well. I can imagine using a keyboard, but most other people I know would not accept that, because it’s too big.
so far the best option I heard is a normal TV remote but with a keypad and trackpad on the back. but do those work with IR, are the signals of these buttons standardized?
my solution is smart TV with restricted VLAN. then it can use jellyfin or whatever I feel like. but I can’t recommend that to the average joe, who does not even have any network equipment capable of restricting a port to a VLAN.
Seriously. any recommendation that does not solve this problem is at most a tech demo. remote control, preferably without the fragile smartphone. and no airmouse, that’s terrible even on my LG TV. hardware side it’s simple, get an USB IR receiver, or use the HDMI-CEC signals coming from the TV. but there is nothing to tie it into the linux desktop.
I just used a mini pc to create a seperate network, then blocked internet for TV network. Then i setup microsocks and made an exception for that proxy and jellyfin. This way I can use smartube (it has a proxy option) for youtube and jellyfin for other media without logging in or providing internet access to anything on the TV.
I use Plasma Big screen and have a remote sized keyboard with trackpad. The arrow keys are usually all you need, but the rest is there if you do need it.
now that is interesting. does it work with IR, or wifi/bluetooth only? if IR, are the signals of these buttons standardized, so that I can expect it to work well if I order one?
Not as such, but there are models that will be crippled in various ways by the lack of a connection.
I saw one that would frantically try to connect (to what, I don’t know) for several minutes out of every hour and while that was going on (because it was offline) the UI would slow down.
Not connecting it to the internet and using HDMI like we’ve been doing for the last 20 years…
This. Everything is this.
My fear is that this will change. We already saw LG load malware via windows when connected. So in theory future devices like Roku and Apple TV could act as a proxy for the tv.
I also fear we will have to install faraday mesh in our walls when these things start arriving with their own internet connection to collect your data and show you ads.
There’s paint for that: ecospaints.net/browse-all/emr-shielding-paint
I’ve heard blackboard paint works as well: smartersurfaces.com/…/black-chalkboard-paint/
I can only imagine how this would totally screw with cell signal and probably generic interference with wanted wireless tech.
As someone who lives in an older style house that totally screws with cell reception “Wi-Fi Calling” makes all the difference
This is your reminder that the Roku company is currently in the process of being purchased by Fox News. No, I’m not joking.
They could but why would they? Roku sells data on you already and has limited things to gain from teaming up on the off chance you’re using a second source for content. Apple sells on the basis of privacy for a higher price and if they’re getting into that game like Roku they’d just spy themselves and not help a competitor on the chance a consumer has blocked it.
If anything Roku and others being able to say “we have data on people TV makers don’t” increases their own value proposition.
The real risk IMO is on device analysis and built in cellular modems sending this data. That and things like Amazon sidewalk meaning your neighbor’s Alexa device passes it on for a fee. That and just refusing to work without internet of course.
This was 100% a Windows driver issue as opposed to a TV issue. And I could see possibly Roku doing this, but not Apple. Apple being Unix based precludes the type of driver loading that Windows is susceptible to.
Same goes for Linux. Just use Linux.
I hear that some models now require internet access to even be able to use it
Sounds like a great item to return to the store for a full refund. Manufactures just love returned products, completely destroys the profit on the next several sales.
unfortunately, the store often eats the cost as a lower-priced open box.
Then it’s on the store to stop carrying bad products.
Only items with the price subsidized by the speculative price of data harvested from the consumer.
Pay full (real) price for a higher end product and you skip the game entirely.
Except there are lots of good reasons to hate HDMI.
So reluctantly using HDMI is more appropriate.
franklinetech.com/is-your-smart-tv-spying-on-you/
I recently bought a new TV and did some research to find the “least worst” TV with regard to internet connectivity and reliance on its “smart OS” navigation to just use an external HDMI port. I can report pretty good news for the Sony Bravia line of Android TVs.
Bonus feature we like:
I wish there was no AndroidTV OS on it at all, but the only time I’ve ever seen it was the one time when we went through the initial setup. We haven’t seen or interacted with it since.
if you don’t mind my asking which model, currently going through the same process right now and I’m between Sony and LG
I originally went shopping for a Bravia II 7, but found an open box Bravia 5 (which is the one I got) for less than half the cost of the Bravia II 7.
Have you tried using it as a DLNA renderer? For example using BubbleUPnP on a mobile device as DLNA controller to cast content from Jellyfin+DLNA plugin as DLNA server.
I haven’t. I have not once hooked it up to a network, and my preference is that I never do so.
My dream is for my kid to learn enough about electronics to be able to open up his TV, identify any microphones, and be able to disable them. Then he might have a chance of privacy when he’s an adult.
That’s likely not going to cover it. They’re taking snapshots of what’s on screen and sending that info home. They’re using wifi and Bluetooth to get your location and information about what other devices you have. Never connecting it to the internet is going to be one of the best things to do for privacy.
If they’re using bluetooth and wifi, we better find and remove those components too. Ain’t no way they won’t have the OS forcibly connect to the nearest open network or start bluetooth to deliver what they want when you ain’t using it, regardless of whether or not you have connected to internet or not.
Removing the Bluetooth/wifi module maybe more difficult. For cost cutting reasons, these controllers are built into the logic boards now, but disconnecting the bluetooth/wifi antennas inside the TV is trivially easy. They are simple push-on mechanical connectors. No wire cutting needed. Gently grab the gold/silver metal part pull straight up from the board.
I just googled “lcd TV logic board” and this was one of the first images I found. I put a red square around the antenna connectors.
Lenny, never let that TV touch the internet. Who’s that mic going to talk to with no connectivity?
Unless they start adding cellular connectivity for serving ads. Though maybe the calculation doesn’t work out, presumably most people would either connect the TV to the internet voluntarily, or they’re not gonna use the TV:s UI much and thus not see many ads.
My friend, we don’t need to speculate. The industry gives us all the info we need.
prnewswire.com/…/sixty-one-percent-of-us-internet…
worldscreen.com/majority-of-u-s-viewers-use-smart…
Right now, it’s about consolidating power at the TV operating system level. Make the TV replace devices like a Roku box and you get all that data. 61% of US households use the TV as their main streaming device. So that’s about 82 million households. Some stats get as high as 70%
www.aidigital.com/blog/connected-tv-stats
So connected TV use is growing at a huge rate.
It’s a hard number to get, but I’ve seen estimates that smart tvs are subsidized by about $200 per unit based on a value of $120 per viewer per year on days collection when they’re connected. Average about 2 people per household and a 3 year lifespan of the TV, and that’s $720-$200, so $500 net profit from data sales on average per unit. So already that’s close to $40-$50 billion in data sales alone across the smart TV market in the US. Without adding in hidden bells and whistles to collect more data.
But the gap the industry sees isn’t people wisely not connecting their TVs. It’s that there’s so many connected devices! They want the TV to just replace some of them.
mediapost.com/…/89-of-us-households-now-have-stre…
And it’s working. Simply causing TV OS bloat to try and get ahead of human laziness and undercut Roku is the goal. With huge gains to be made without spending a penny on things like embedded sims cards and cellular service for 40 million TVs sold annually in the US to collect data on a group that’s already shifting patterns to the TV as the primary device. Why bother? It’s wasted money for most units sold. If companies just sold cheap, subsidized TVs that demanded they must be connected to work, then that’s the easiest, cheapest, highest profit angle to play.
Same with cars. An auto elec that can disable the snooping would be rich.
Keep it offline? Wow, that was easy.
just because it isnt conneted to your network dosent mean it isnt sending data over side channels it could:
use alternative networks provided by other devices (ring cams, amazon echo etc)
decentral networks like apple or google tracking networks via phones
it could strait out have a sim card with modem
sending ultrasonic tones recived by ad tracking networks on smartphones
high speed IR flickers that could be recived by smartphones distance sensor
samsung service personal in the building across the street with a big telescope
I’d genuinely love to see real evidence of any of these things being used in a wide range of models.
These are mostly expensive options (a SIM card for every TV? really?) and require maintenance and finesse, and aren’t needed for the majority of units shipped. Occam’s razor would suggest they’re happy enough with anyone stupid enough to connect the TV that all this work for 5-10% of their market isn’t worth the additional marginal cost to each unit.
There are models that will try out unencrypted wifi AP just to phone home. No extra equipment needed and unfortunately the chances of finding an open AP are pretty good in the middle of the city.
Sure, but that’s just a software choice. A shitty, sneaky software choice, but still. That’s not adding in a SIM card, data subscription, radio, etc.
…by not buying one. /thread
I recently purchased an old plasma TV I will be tinkering with. No internet connectivity of any kind. It is hard to get excited about new TVs that are basically google and Bezos boxes and I do not wish to send them a single dime just to be spied on when I just want to watch my movies on bluray.
I am aware I can just disconnect my TV from the internet, but I don’t want to support the stupid platforms that are built into the TV. Why is it any of Googles, amazon or any other platforms business what I use my TV for?
What a convoluted way of saying Linux is better. And using Ubuntu as reference…
Just buy a monitor ,connect a SBC to it ,ad software ,install IPTV player, tvgarden , and visit FMHY.net for ideas
I prefer my TVs to have no ads, thank you very much.
😂😂😂🤔😂😂😂, never seen ads in the last 10 years
But you use the Internet? I doubt that. Even torrent sites have some.
I think its country and provider related.
Iam on Linux laptop,phone is graphene , ubo installed.
Nobody I know uses torrents , streaming is normal ,somethimes with use off scraper.
Have a look at FMHY.net
and how will you control it with the TV remote? don’t say to use the mouse and keyboard from the couch because then I rather won’t turn it on at all
Use Kodi and it will respond to HDMI-CEC. Works a treat with my LG.
Get a media TV remote and a USB IR receiver.
Edit: I wrote Bluetooth when I meant USB
It is clear until that point, but how do you set up full control with that? afaik by default nothing listens to the input events generated by the IR receiver
Well, certain inputs like <up> <down> <left> <right> will map directly to keyboard equivalents. The OK button generally maps to <enter>. And then other inputs like play/pause, volume, skip forward/backward are standard PC inputs that just about every OS supports out of the box. Most keyboards have those buttons on them and they “just work”.
For additional functionality you can use specialized software to manage it.
The IR receiver is just a “translator”. The input the computer sees is just a standard HID peripheral (Human Input Device).
My wife and i sewed a pocket into our couch. We used to hold a TV remote there, now we have the laptop’s wireless mouse and charging cable in there.
It seems silly for all of a week, and then its just part of the routine
to me the reason I don’t want a mouse is I need to move it on some surface for it to work, and even then it’s handling is much less accurate than at the desk, and its a chore to target that little button on the screen. from this point keyboard based navigation would work better, in apps that implement it well. I can imagine using a keyboard, but most other people I know would not accept that, because it’s too big.
so far the best option I heard is a normal TV remote but with a keypad and trackpad on the back. but do those work with IR, are the signals of these buttons standardized?
Sounds like a you problem, sometimes you gotta live different if you don’t wanna be tracked.
my solution is smart TV with restricted VLAN. then it can use jellyfin or whatever I feel like. but I can’t recommend that to the average joe, who does not even have any network equipment capable of restricting a port to a VLAN.
Seriously. any recommendation that does not solve this problem is at most a tech demo. remote control, preferably without the fragile smartphone. and no airmouse, that’s terrible even on my LG TV. hardware side it’s simple, get an USB IR receiver, or use the HDMI-CEC signals coming from the TV. but there is nothing to tie it into the linux desktop.
That’s a bit uncalled for, don’t you think?
I just used a mini pc to create a seperate network, then blocked internet for TV network. Then i setup microsocks and made an exception for that proxy and jellyfin. This way I can use smartube (it has a proxy option) for youtube and jellyfin for other media without logging in or providing internet access to anything on the TV.
I use Plasma Big screen and have a remote sized keyboard with trackpad. The arrow keys are usually all you need, but the rest is there if you do need it.
now that is interesting. does it work with IR, or wifi/bluetooth only? if IR, are the signals of these buttons standardized, so that I can expect it to work well if I order one?
RF USB Dongle, it shows up as a keyboard.
It’s this one here
www.newegg.ca/…/N82E16823852004
I love this writing style
How you gonna watch the nfl then??
Ha! I knew there had to be an EDID blocker out there!
Are there TVs that require an internet connection to simply use without “smart” features?
Not as such, but there are models that will be crippled in various ways by the lack of a connection.
I saw one that would frantically try to connect (to what, I don’t know) for several minutes out of every hour and while that was going on (because it was offline) the UI would slow down.
I installed a VPN on mine.